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• Intro - Letter to Conference of doctors
• Interview with Prof. Yirmiyahu Branover
• Dr. Naftali Berg on Creation
• Analysis of Dr. Berg's Lecture on Creation / Prof. Shimon Silman
• "Cold Water" / Prof. Aryeh Gotfryd


• Sicha of Parshas Noach on Unity
• Mathematical Infinity and Tzimtzum (Creation) / Dr. Tzvi Saks
• The Conscious Universe / Prof. Aryeh Gotfryd
• Revival of the Dead and Immortality:Regeneration of Nerve Tissue - an Analogy for Techiyas HaMeisim

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Interview with Professor Yirmiyahu Branover on Science and the Era of Moshiach

at the 4th conference on Moshiach and Science

Interviewed by Rabbi Shimon Silman, Director, Rabbi Yisroel Aryeh Leib Research Institute on Moshiach and the Sciences

Rabbi Silman: The Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach explains in a Sicha, based on a statement in the Zohar, that the scientific discoveries of the past 150 years together with the revelation of the teachings of Chassidus were revealed in order to prepare the world for Moshiach. Can you comment specifically on the scientific theories and developments in the past 150 years that corroborate the current Era of Moshiach?

Prof. Branover: Without a doubt, the tendency of modern science is certainly converging with the world outlook of Torah. The Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, always stresses that we have to learn from everything we see, and we see very much in this time and age all kinds of expressions in science and scientific literature, and in practical results of science and different technology, evidence that supports this convergence. All of that should teach us what is the lesson from the Torah perspective.

Later on I'll go into the various examples of how modern scientists are converging toward Torah views, and how so many of those once famous arguments between science and Torah have been shown to be falling apart and no longer valid.

But first, I want to bring out another important lesson about which the Rebbe speaks regarding an additional use of modern technology. When you are transmitting Torah lessons or Torah discourses over the radio, the space is literally filled with words of the Torah because the electromagnetic waves, a physical carrier, are carrying the words of Torah over huge distances. Since they travel at the speed of light , they fill up the whole space around the earth--and beyond--with words of Torah. When you listen to a sicha of the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, transmitted by radio all over the world, you are approaching a situation which is actually by definition, a Moshiach situation; where the whole earth and the whole universe are filled with the words of Torah and the words of G-d. This is of great importance because it is not only an example, it is a physical reality. Technology developed specifically because of progress in the sciences helps bring about the situation predicted in the Torah and by our prophets corresponding to characteristics of the Era of Moshiach.

What happened was all of the so-called conflicts between science and Torah eventually fell apart; nobody came along and officially destroyed them, but they disappeared on their own by science's mere progress.

Let's use the theory of evolution as an example. First of all, the theory itself was transformed several times, so it's already no longer Darwinism. Darwinism was later exchanged because of the development of genetics into modern synthesis by Huxley and others. But no matter what version of the theory, it became absolutely invalid because they could never find the missing links between certain species among the fossils, so they came to the complete inversion of the theory. And that is ridiculous because Stephen [Gouls] and others punctuated the equilibrium and they say, "no, there are no missing links in the fossils because there haven't been missing links. One species was transformed into another in palentological frame in zero time. It happened, so to say overnight." Therefore, for those who look for fossils to present a case for the evolutionary process--there hasn't been an evolutionary process. There has been a jump from one situation to another. The whole thing simply doesn't make sense. Darwin at least had a nice explanation, but now those who accept this punctuated equilibrium can only say, "Now we will investigate what the mechanism was. Why did this jump?" They foolishly stick to evolution because it is important for ideological reasons, but they don't even have a theory as poor as Darwin's. At least Darwin's theory looked elegant externally. Now they have nothing.

Modern philosophers of science, e.g. Carl Popper, say evolution is simply not a scientific theory; it does not meet the critera. What it is, is a metaphysical system of ideas. So it's nothing. It has nothing to do with science. Without going into detail, this is important because many people still make a big deal out of evolution without knowing that evolution is dead. Nobody who is serious speaks about evolution. It is only those who have ideological motives or who make their living from evolution that stick to it.

Now the same situation exists regarding geological evolution which has been very much replaced by catastrophic approach (they claim that the changes have been catastrophic rather than evolutionary). According to this theory, geological phenomena could change in a very short time. There are many other examples. But what is important is not only that those ideas which claimed to contradict or, chalilah, refute Torah, disappeared, collapsed, or were annihilated; but that the newest developments in science are in accordance with what the Zohar says and what the Rebbe is always quoting. The Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, stresses that in our days the material world is prepared for the coming of Moshiach, and nothing can reflect the material world more than scientific thoughts, scientific inquiries, scientific explanation. Science was always supposed to be, and has to be by definition, rational, cold and removed--and suddenly all these new theories are coming, with accelerating speed, back to classical fundamental Torah concepts.

I will give a few examples. First of all, the oldest argument of all is probably the structure of the solar system. When Copernicus wrote his book 450 years ago, he changed the whole idea of its structure. He replaced the Ptolemeyan geocentrical system by a helicentrical system. For the sake of his calculations, he changed the places of the sun and the earth. It not because he believed in the inverse structure, but the calculations are easier if you assume the sun is standing still and the earth is rotating. But this caused a whole revolution and a lot of arguments. In the beginning, it was completely unknown to Jews--they didn't have to deal with this conflict--but the Haskala movement transplanted it into Jewish communities, into Jewish schools, and that is how it started.

Now, as the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach always stresses, we live in the era of modern science, and modern science has several theories as its foundation: Einstein's theory of relativity, quantum theory and others. Einstein's theory says clearly and unequivocally that there is no absolute space and no absolute moment, therefore the whole question (of the placement of the sun and the earth) is scientifically irrelevant. We can assume either way; geocentrical or helicentrical system. There is an interesting book published back in 1926, just 10 years after Einstein published his general theory of relativity. The book, The Philosophy of Time and Space, was written in German by one of Einstein's disciples, Hans Reichenbach and is now available in English (from Dover Publications). In it he writes very clearly and very convincingly that we can be modern and adhere to modern physics and Einstein's theory and accept the idea that the Earth is standing still in the center of the universe. Remarkably and regrettably, people in universities are still not aware of this. Because of their narrow-mindedness, even some people who are working in relativity have never come to this point. They learned in elementary school that the earth rotates around the sun and that's it. Working in relativity theory, he knows his equations, but he works in his specific narrow area and never had time to perceive it on a global scale. We had here in Chabad even, a special seminar on this question: how to understand the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach's words on these matters and how to accept without any fear or apologetics the idea that the earth is standing still. We couldn't find the sources so we needed to go to the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach himself and ask his advice. Then we found this book by Reichenbach and we understood. Even we professional scientists who belong to Chabad couldn't find the answers. We needed direct guidance from the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach. So that is one example.

Another example is provided by quantum physics. The most fundamental contradiction (I should say apparent contradiction--it wasn't a real contradiction) which dominated this area of Torah and science for several centuries since the inception of classical science by Newton, Laplace and others was the issue of free will. Since Newtonian science, classical science assumed that everything in nature is deterministic - that there are chains of causes and effects and that the present state of a physical system determines the future state and that science is omnipotent - that it can explain not only the human body but also the human mind--thought and soul. Thus they came to the conclusion that everything is predictable using the laws of physics and mathematical computations, and since in their perception man is some kind of machine--a robot--acting on the basis of physical and chemical impulses, they reached the conclusion that there is no free will because we can calculate how a certain man a hundred years from now who wasn't yet born will behave and what he will do in the year so and so and on a certain date. This, if it would be true, is a terrible contradiction to free will which is one of the fundamental principles of Torah. To make the choice whether or not to fulfill G-d's 613 commandments, we need free will. Hopefully, we will make the right choice, although we have the possibility of the opposite.

Now with quantum physics, indeterminism was reinstalled because, as anybody who has even an elementary knowledge of quantum physics knows, particles, the bricks of universe, known as electrons, protons, and photons - particles of light all have dual structures. They are simultaneously particles and waves. That in itself is difficult to understand, which demonstrates how sophisticated the world is and how previously simplistic, primitive and wrong we have been. Secondly, because of this wave character of the universe, it turns out we can only deal with probabilities regarding elementary particles, but great physicists like Robert Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner in quantum physics along with others are arguing that it applies not only to microscopic, but also to macroscopic - big objects. Feynman says an atomic bomb can be triggered by single electrons hitting or not hitting a target. An electron hitting or not hitting a target depends on probability and cannot be predicted.

So the whole world is becoming nondeterministic--and taking into account other theories --brings us back to free will. Even more so, as Copenhagen school of quantum physics has stated (I will not go into the difference now between the Einstein and Copenhagen school), if there wouldn't be an observer, the whole world would scientifically cease to exist. It would just be a collection of probability waves. Or, said another way, the world could exist simultaneously in an infinite number of states. But that is impossible because the real world is one, so there couldn't be two, ten, hundreds or millions of infinite worlds. So something has to bring to the collapse of probability waves into reality. After having checked all the possibilities they come to two conclusions: One is that there has to be a Creator, a supreme being which is not dependent on nature, because, by simple logic, to establish nature you need something higher than nature. So it should be a Creator, a Supreme Being. Being indoctrinated as they are, and being atheists, many scientists reject this idea. They say, "No. We are scientists and cannot accept this idea of G-d." This, of course has nothing to do with science; it has to do with their faulty education. The other possibility is they do say man possesses free will. One of the greatest scientists in quantum science, Eugene Wigner, said, "I know nothing, no other entity which is independent of nature, except for free will which man possesses." Therefore the free will of a human being is bringing the about the collapse of probability waves and, in this way, reality "evolves." Which is remarkable. So science leads us directly towards the acknowledgement of free will and the acknowledgement of G-d. That is exactly what the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, is saying: you only have to open your eyes, and everything--even the material world--the coldest, most rational thing that science is supposed to be, is leading you directly to those concepts. Of course, it is not my field, but in modern mathematics - in mathematical logics you can find many, many examples of how it happens also there. The newest developments point to how it leads quickly, irrevocably, and convincingly back to the Torah world outlook.

Rabbi Silman: Now Professor Branover, are there theories in science that can help us comprehend or construct a framework to understand techiyas hamasim: that those who are dead are going to come back to life?

Prof. Branover: I can answer on two levels. First of all, the sciences are coming back with ever-growing speed into the Torah world, converging to Torah world outlook and Torah teachings. A hundred years ago it may have been difficult to comprehend, difficult to have "peace of mind" with some supernatural ideas which are deeply rooted in Torah such as miracles, nissim, revival of the dead, the final redemption--Geula shleima, yeshua. These supernatural events can appear to be frightening to people who stick to atheistic materialistic realms especially if they compare them with the conclusions of classical science. But classical science today is obsolete and looks very simplistic and primitive.

Now through modern sciences we have learned how sophisticated, how complicated this world is; and how we have only scratched the surface. The more we go into scientific explanation, we realize how much more we don't know, how phenomena discovered by science, through mathematics, through empirical observation leads to conclusions which our limited mind is unable to perceive and accept and comprehend.

I already mentioned the dual structure of the particle. Whether light or electron or whatever the particle is, even if it is very small and not seen with a naked eye you can still imagine that it is something you can touch, something you can perceive. Simultaneously, it is a wave. A normal human mind within its natural limitations cannot visualize or rationalize that. Nevertheless we accept it.

So science is teaching us that we have to accept things which are either the result of our own explanation or have been passed over to us from higher authority--from the Creator Himself--and from our great teachers: from Moshe Rabbeinu and the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach. Despite the fact that we are limited, and therefore we can't understand or visualize every instance, we have to accept these things because they are real: more real than things which we assume we are viewing, seeing or listening to in the process of our exploration of nature.

Modern science is showing us clearly that we need to get rid of simplistic approaches, get rid of obsolete perceptions and make peace with the fact that sometimes, if you deal with difficult concepts, you just have to accept the incomprehensible either because of logical and scientific explanations or revelations and teachings of the great, great teachers we have. So that is number one.
In that context, I mentioned the many miracles that there are such as revival of the dead, techiyas hamasim and the Geula shleima. But amongst the greatest miracles spoken about by the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach is the revelation of Moshiach. Moshiach is already here--we just have to open our eyes--but the actual seeing of Moshiach of course will be the greatest miracle of all. The fact that our naturally-oriented mind doesn't understanding it completely doesn't matter; we have to trust, to learn, to have full bitochen, full confidence, and then our understanding will also improve. After all, we daven three times every day for things which we probably can never understand rationally. But if our prayers are said with real kavana, then when we talk about nissim such as revival of the dead and Geula shleima, we can have full confidence and belief in them despite the fact that we can't visualize it happening. This is one of the results of the evolvement of modern science.

The other is more recent, and that is that remarkably, certain scientists are coming directly to the idea of techiyas hamasim. An interesting book, published a few months ago, The Physics of Immortality, by Frank Tipler is a very good example. A number of years ago he also wrote, together with John Barrow, about cosmological anthropic principle. In their book, they wrote that man is central to the universe and the earth is central to the universe; and that in the entire universe, with all its galaxies, the earth has the only possible conditions under which life--specifically man--can exist. Then he went a step further and he analyzed it. As an atheist, he isn't relying on spiritual revelation; but through mathematical and physical explanations he comes to the conclusion of resurrection of the dead, not only as a physical possibility but, as I understand him correctly, from his point of view, it will inevitably, necessarily occur. He also speaks about the necessity and existence of free will. Here you have a splendid example of how completely the external sciences and a man who was very external to Torah are coming to the same conclusions because his profession leads him in this direction.

Rabbi Silman: Can you comment on anything specific in his theories?

Prof. Branover: As religious Jews, we should have a problem with details in his theory, because he speaks about the certain time frames for the processes which he anticipates. He even brings a long argument whether he should use the term "G-d" or some other omega point etc. Of course coming from a scientist who is external to Torah and probably never exposed to Torah, this is not surprising. Regarding his time frames, he comes to the idea of Resurrection and free will based on the accumulation in super computers of vast amounts of information about human beings, about the structure of their body and their spiritual activity, and so on. It doesn't fit the Torah frame on those issues. So we can argue about details - and I think we should argue because he should learn about Moshiach from classical Torah sources. But that he even comes to the same conclusions is most admirable and remarkable. That would have been unthinkable to me, who spent more than 40 years of my life in the scientific and university world. It's so unexpected, so miraculous - why is it that nowadays scientists and serious physicists are coming to these conclusions which just 20-30 years ago had been completely taboo? Who in the scientific community would have even dared to mention them?! I am sure that because of the materialistic indoctrination and atheism of many scientists, they will object strongly to what Tipler is writing in his book, but nevertheless he decided to publish it and to make it known to the wide public. But the fact that the book was published and the book is widely publicized and distributed and he decided that out of scientific exploration not only to come to those conclusions but he decided to publish it - this whole thing is so remarkable to me, having spent my young years as an atheist in the Communist Soviet Union. We had been taught from kindergarten and with slogans that religion is an opium for the people and that science refutes and denies religion. Now suddenly look what happens. Scientists are coming directly to Torah concepts!

Rabbi Silman: There is an interesting statement in the Talmud Sanhedrin where it says, lo ivrei alma ela le-Moshiach, that the whole world was created only for Moshiach. Now, of course, the sciences are part of the created universe. They are also creations. Would you say then, based on what we have been talking about, that science has now reached the point where it is serving its proper role in the order of creation: that of coming to the conclusion of Moshiach and serving the purpose of Moshiach?

Prof. Branover: The Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach's point of view is that everything that was created, including sciences, was created for a holy purpose, for kedusha. Everything depends on us and our free will. How do we use it? We can use science for refuting religion, for struggling against religion, as we did over the course of several generations. Many people made a new idol worship out of science by worshiping science and scientists. That's the wrong approach. Many people may have been well meaning but they were misled. They have been blind. In the era of Classical Sciences it was difficult to find the right way to use science. You needed such a giant as the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, to explain all these matters. But the Rebbe didn't start speaking about all those things--that science is leading to Torah and Moshiach--only recently. He spoke about it fifty years ago, when all those books I mentioned and all those new approaches were unknown. Fifty years ago the public hardly knew about quantum physics and relativity and so on. Certainly we now see how the whole universe and its reflections in science is really serving and leading directly to Moshiach. We learn from Chabad Chassidus, from the Alter Rebbe, that the ultimate goal and purpose of the Chassidic movement was to accelerate the coming of Moshiach, Now that we are in the seventh generation, the generation of Moshiach, we are so fortunate that we are so close, that we live in this time. So now it depends on us. The Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, says that Moshiach is here and we just have to open our eyes and it is very important that Jews work in this area. We need at least a minyan--ten people--but preferably many more, to make it the foundation of their lives to do something to bring Moshiach immediately now through strengthening mitzvahs, through helping people, through unity, through kindness, to bring this world of kindness for which we are longing so deeply.

Rabbi Silman: It is interesting that you mention that this process goes back to the Alter Rebbe. One of the things that you spoke about a few minutes ago, how we have to change our perception of reality and not take the world or even our scientific analysis of the world at first glance. The Alter Rebbe makes this point at great length in chapter 42 of Tanya. He says a Jew has to train himself not to look at the world as hitzoneous and think that it is the way it appears. But rather to realize that the whole physical world that he sees is only the external levush, the external garments of G-d, and the Jew has to train himself to look at the pnimius. To realize that the reality of the world is the inner life, which is the life that Hashem gives to the world.

Our colleague, Dr. Berg, zechranu levracha, [Director of Research of the Advanced Technology Office of the Army Research Center at the Pentagon] spoke the past two years about some of the developments in scientific areas that again show that we are in the time of Moshiach. Is there something you could say to review and take further some of his ideas?

Prof. Branover: Our dear friend Naftoli Berg, olav hashalom, lectured about Torah and science and about convergence of sciences with Torah in the Era of Moshiach and the eminent coming of Moshiach. But his whole life is a personal example: he was a manifestation of a Jew who is bringing Moshiach closer because he worked in one of the most important, most famous laboratories of the Pentagon and was involved in military research. I think he won all the awards that were ever issued by the Pentagon. I visited him many times in his laboratory. On their "wall of fame," where they exhibited their awards, nobody was mentioned as many times as Naftoli, and there he was--a Jew with a full beard and tzizis with a big black yamulka! In his laboratory, he had all the necessary things--a kvort to wash his hands for eating, etc. He used to arrange a minyan in the Pentagon itself, and that in itself was remarkable. People knew about it all over the world. We heard a conversation in the streets of London where one Jewish youngster told another, in great astonishment, that he heard there was a man in the Pentagon who is walking around with a beard and tzizis. The boys were overwhelmed because they couldn't imagine that to be possible. The kiddush Hashem was enormous.

Rabbi Silman: Using the concepts we've been discussing, and using ideas in science to help us understand the events that are unfolding in the Era of Moshiach, I'd like to ask you to comment specifically on the events after Gimmel Tammuz. Since Gimmel Tammuz we have not been able to see the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, with our physical eyes, yet we know from the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach's most recent talks, particularly those from tav shin nun alef, and tav shin nun bais, (1991-92) when the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach spoke about chaim nitzchim, that there is eternal life without any interruption in the life, similar to what the Talmud says about Yaakov Avinu, "Yaakov Avinu lo meis," our father Jacob never passed away. It is also similar to what the Talmud says about Moshe Rabbeinu, that Moshe Rabbenu did not die, and it is similar to what the Talmud says about Dovid Hamelech and what we say once a month at kiddush levana: Dovid Hamelech yisroel chai v'kayom, that Dovid Hamelech continues to live. We see the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, talking about this at length. It doesn't mean that he continues to live in Gan Eden--in the World to Come--because that is true with every Jew. Dovid Hamelech chai v'kayom means, Dovid continues to live and continues to be the king of the Jewish people since the time of his being anointed in Chevron thousands of years ago and from then continuously through the rest of time l'olom vo'ed. So we know that the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach continues to live--infinitely, eternally--like what it says in Chassidus about Moshiach.

In connection to this, we continue to announce publicly, Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu v'Rabbeinu Melech Hamoshiah L'olom Vo'ed--an announcement the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach explained gives life to the king. When the subjects of the king, the nation, make an announcement, "Yechi Hamelech," long live the king, this gives life to the king. Can you integrate this with our discussion now, specifically about how scientific theories give the Jew the ability to see the world differently and prepare him for the events of Moshiach, particularly that the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, will reappear before us. We understand that it won't be a resurrection, because he is still alive--it will be a reappearance. Can you give us some structure?

Prof. Branover: First of all, from what was discussed before, I think the bottom line from all the discussion here, as you mentioned before, is also mentioned in Chassidus, in Tanya. What our eyes of flesh are seeing is not reality. Reality is much more complicated, much more sophisticated. Therefore, the whole issue of certain great personalities in Jewish history living eternally, beginning from Yaakov Avinu and others who you mentioned is a statement which cannot be taken out of Torah. As long as you accept Torah, you have to accept all of it. You cannot divide Torah into parts. Even if you change one letter and certainly even more so, one concept, it is not the Torah. This would create falsification of Torah. I believe that all we have discussed about the sciences - how science is teaching us that we have to accept concepts even when we don't see them, visualize them or comprehend them. All that is a good preparation for accepting and believing with full confidence this concept of Yaakov Avinu "lo meis." Certainly it is applicable to the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach. It is this aspect and not Resurrection of the Dead which we rely on. We also know that the coming of Moshiach will be followed by Resurrection of the Dead. That is known in Torah concepts. But as the Rebbe says, (in more than one sicha, but in one sicha I remember) I believe in 5731, where he discusses this in detail that, yes, with a very earthly glance, it looks like Yaakov Avinu died. The Egyptians saw how people dealt with his body and all the behavior surrounding the event and yes, if you are only capable of seeing on the surface, then it looks like Yaakov Avinu died. But the Torah, the Gemora makes a statement that that was not the case. In reality he didn't die.

The Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach stresses that we shouldn't be entrapped by the temptation to explain it in a spiritual sense--that he is living spiritually. That is obvious. That is elementary. The point is he is living also physically and bodily and we have to rely on the teachings of the Torah to educate ourselves. There have been many things that we couldn't understand but now science itself recognizes them. At today's level science may not be able to give direct explanations for this very elevated and very high concept that Yaakov Avinu is alive physically, but we should learn from our experiences regarding other questions. This is certainly something which should be a foundation of our faith.

This brings me to the question of "Yechi." I believe that it is very important that we say Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu v'Rabbeinu Melech Hamoshiah L'olom Vo'ed. As you said, it give chayus, it gives life to the Rebbe, MH"M. It gives life to all of us because Moshiach, as the Gemora states and as logic says, is the foundation, the ultimate goal of the entire creation. So by reciting it--if we recite it from the depths of our hearts and depths of our soul--it adds life, energy, so to say, if I may use a technological term, to ourselves and to the entire universe. But the necessity is not only to recite it, which of course is also very important - to make it publicly known, to involve other people. But it is even more important to sincerely believe in it and to live with this concept that Melech Hamoshiach, the Rebbe, is with us. He lives. He is not only guiding us and supervising everything that is happening here in this world on a spiritual level, but he is also physically with us, bodily, despite the fact that temporarily we cannot see and cannot hear him. That should become the foundation of our life. It may not be easy. These are difficult concepts; but the important ones are the most difficult and the most difficult are the most important. You have to study, you have to train your imagination, your perception, and more than anything else you have to have bitochon and bittul. You have to nullify yourself. You don't have to rely on your cleverness - that is a fundamental issue of Chabad Chassidus. If a person has an exaggerated self-esteem, he is not leaving space for G-d. This person views himself as the center of the universe.

So first of all there should be bittul and on the grounds of this bittul there should be an unlimited bitochen and confidence. Then it will not only make us happier and more fulfilled, but it certainly will accelerate enormously and make it absolutely imminent and immediate, the coming of Moshiach - the Rebbe Melech Hamoshiach.

Rabbi Silman: Based on what we said, I think it is appropriate to conclude the interview by announcing: Yechi Adoneinu Moreinu V'Rabbeinu Melech HaMoshiach L'olam Vo'ed!

 

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